INTERVIEWS WITH AMY BOWERMAN - BLACKPINK'S BORN PINK TOUR CREATIVE DIRECTOR

All the interviews with Amy Bowerman, the creative director on BLACKPINK’s Born Pink tour. Edited to include only her quotes. The last article is from an interview about Bowerman’s work with FLO after the Born Pink tour where a comparison was made .

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“They were the ones in charge of their setlist, so we knew the main tracks we wanted to work with, and then it was about what songs go well with them. It was really natural, pulling together the setlist.”

Source: NME

Amy Bowerman was was brought on board to help conceptualise the concert’s visual and creative direction shortly before the release of their single ‘Pink Venom’ in August, so it’s no surprise she tells NME that “it all started with the new music”.

Split into four acts, ‘Born Pink’ is a celebration of everything BLACKPINK represents. “It’s very ethereal, very feminine and gorgeous,” Bowerman says of the concert’s opening act set in an enchanted garden. “Later, we move into this hugely monochromatic state that’s very stark, black-and-white and powerful. And for us, that’s the two sides of BLACKPINK,” she explains. The ethos of ‘Born Pink’, she explains, lies in breaking down and celebrating these sides of BLACKPINK, both as individuals and “super powerful artists”. 

How did you and YG Entertainment first conceptualise the ‘Born Pink’ tour?

“We listened to the music with BLACKPINK and their producer Teddy Park, and it was very much about finding out what the new record meant to them and what they wanted to achieve with the tour. At the heart of it was taking all of their new music and all of the old favourites to combine them and make something incredible.”

How did discussions with BLACKPINK and their team unfold?

“Incredible, the team at YG are amazing. They’ve been with BLACKPINK forever, so it’s very much a family. The team, the girls, they all have great ideas and it was very much a collaboration. It was getting into a room, talking about what everybody wants to achieve. Not knowing K-pop and not knowing that side of the industry, I was terrified to start off. But they were super welcoming, and it was just a really fun, inspiring experience.”

They were the ones in charge of their setlist, so we knew the main tracks we wanted to work with, and then it was about what songs go well with them. It was really natural, pulling together the setlist.

“We were very connected with both the Korean and English lyrics and sat there with translations throughout. They’re super powerful, the imagery and their lyrics, so I don’t think you can be disconnected from it. It naturally feeds into it.”

Each member also has her own solo performance in the ‘Born Pink’ tour. Was it difficult ensuring that these were cohesive with the show, yet unique to them as individuals?

“I’ve personally never had that within a show before, so it was new. But I think it worked really nicely since you get some time for a one-on-one moment with each member. We do take a little break in between and set the stage for the next one so it’s not a blank slate, and the way it’s laid out in the setlist works really well for entrances and exits. I think the reaction you get in between each performance leaves you saying ‘well, what’s next, who’s next?’ and makes it a super exciting part of the show, because you have no idea what’s around the corner.”

Were there any particular songs or segments you found tricky to work on?

“No, to be honest. I think what was tricky was taking all of the music and putting it down into the time that we had. You could do a million things with them and choosing one form of presentation is really difficult. We could do a BLACKPINK rock opera that lasts six hours, because there’s so much that we could include.”

Have you been paying attention to fan reactions?

“I really love the Blinks. Personally, there are little elements you put into the show that you don’t think anybody’s going to notice, but the Blinks don’t miss a thing. It’s really lovely to see every aspect of the show being enjoyed, and how much they care for BLACKPINK, how much they enjoy the time they get to spend with BLACKPINK.

“That’s one thing I’ve noticed specifically in K-pop, there’s more time dedicated to actually talking to their audience, and I think that that’s such a wonderful part of it, to be such a two-way relationship. It’s something that I’ve really loved experiencing, stepping into K-pop.”

Coming aboard the ‘Born Pink’ tour after working with so many huge artists in the West, has the experience has been very different?

“I think a lot of people in the West view K-pop as being this incredibly polished, well-oiled machine. But one of the things that I really enjoyed is how dissimilar from that idea it can be as well. There is such a value of fans, such a value of tours being a real opportunity to go out there and spend time with your audience.

“For me, one difference that I really enjoyed was working with a female production team. I’d never met a female lighting director in the West, ever. And then all of a sudden, I’m sat at the conference table and everybody there is female. As a woman in this industry, I was living my fantasy. They’re incredible. They’re so hardworking. That’s where that meticulousness comes from, I think, that we all associate with K-pop. How much they genuinely care, live and breathe and want to create something that is truly magical is really inspiring. I just love every second of it.”

Besides BLACKPINK and their music, did the team have any other inspirations for the tour?

“The girls have so many different inspirations, obviously, fashion being a huge one. They’re so prevalent in fashion that you can’t get away from it. I can’t really pinpoint specific things. I think their own message and their personalities is what we took a lot of inspiration from. Who BLACKPINK are, as we have experienced them, was one of the biggest things that we wanted to pull from within the show.”

Is there anything special that fans can look forward to at the upcoming ‘Born Pink’ show in London?

“The London show for me, personally, is a big thing since I live in London. It’s gonna be incredible to see them in that venue I mean, it’s huge, it’s iconic. In terms of the show there’s nothing we’ve changed to fit for each territory. But for me, London’s gonna be a really special show, and I just I can’t wait to show everybody here who has been working on it, you know, everything they’ve been working on.”

Do you have a favourite BLACKPINK song to watch in concert?

“It always changes. I think there was one day where we had ‘Tally’ stuck in our heads like crazy. And then there’s always something else you don’t realise is going to be so stuck with you, like ‘Pretty Savage’ always gets stuck in my head by the end of it.”

“Though I will say this as a BLACKPINK fan, when I first saw ‘DDU-DU DDU-DU’ on stage I was like ‘OK, this is incredible.’ But then, again, the next day it would be like, ‘How You Like That’ becomes your favourite, and then the next day, it changes again.”

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“These girls are real, these girls can dance, and these girls are incredible. I think the tour is gonna start breaking down some of these barriers that people have towards K-pop thinking it's just a giant factory or that, because we don't really see it in person that much, it must be fake."

Souce: harpersbazaar

For the group's creative director, Amy Bowerman, crafting the world of BLACKPINK for the stage meant embracing each member's personality and creative desires. "Femininity is such an important element for them, but then they kind of counter a lot of their K-pop peers. They have an edge. They have a sense of power," says Bowerman, who has also worked alongside Dua Lipa and Ed Sheeran. "There is a narrative to the show, and at the end we're definitely looking to just celebrate BLACKPINK in all their glory."

The dichotomy of BLACKPINK, according to Bowerman, is finding a delicate balance between the ultra-feminine and militaristic aspects of their performance.

"We start off in this kind of woodland-esque world that's quite nymphlike, but then we go into this hard-edged, monochrome, military, 'How You Like That' moment. We're always making sure we're peppering in those double sides to them," Bowerman explains. "Especially in their individual solos, they each wanted to be represented in their own ways.

You have Lisa who has her iconic dance moments and of course her pole. You have Rosé being a complete rockstar. Jennie’s solo has these incredible couple dances and then raps in a laser tunnel! And Jisoo has this hot, seductive fire-filled moment.”

According to Bowerman, the choreography was a non-negotiable element that needed to be included in the tour's final presentation.

"You can't touch the dancing," she laughs. "That is something that they bring to the table that you just have to build around. YG has their own dance company, YGX, and they have all their own dancers and they've been together forever. All of their songs come with their own dance choreo, and their fans all know that choreo. So that choreo has to stay! That's part of their connection with their fans, and that is one thing that is super important to them."

While you can feel the influence of other artists in the show's presentation ("You can't do a super-monochrome blow-through screen without thinking of Janet Jackson," she says), Bowerman thinks the girls' references are more inspired by fashion than anything else.

"They're obviously huge in the fashion world, and a lot of where they pull their iconography comes from fashion. I really love that kind of naughties, late nineties, theatrical stage show where it feels a bit more physical," says Bowerman. "You are part of that show and it's all unfolding in front of you. There's no crazy tricks. It's all very physical. That's maybe that's where that element of nostalgia comes from."

K-Pop acts can almost feel unreal, in part thanks to the ultra-precise production that surrounds them at all times: the big-budget music videos, the intense press schedules. This disconnect has been emphasized by the global pandemic that stopped BLACKPINK from being able to see and connect with their fans in real life for two years. With Born Pink — the group's first full global tour — the girls are not only able to be in the same room as their fans, but also prove that they're not just some far-off, conglomerate-produced, money-making product. They're real people, with real visions, and they're happy to be here. Personal touches throughout the show, like BLACKPINK pausing to take an on-stage selfie with the crowd, strip back any preconceived notion that the girls aren't emotionally available for their fans.

"Other than at Coachella, not a lot of people have seen them live," Bowerman says. "K-pop being so big, I think that a lot of outsiders see it as this thing that's almost not real — but it's definitely real! These girls are real, these girls can dance, and these girls are incredible. I think the tour is gonna start breaking down some of these barriers that people have towards K-pop thinking it's just a giant factory or that, because we don't really see it in person that much, it must be fake."

"We just wanted to deliver a show that feels exciting, with a lot of energy and a lot of fun, because that is ultimately what BLACKPINK are," she adds. "I hope that everybody who walks through their door feels like they've entered a huge party — and that everybody leaves a Blink."

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“They really wanted control over their solo stages as well. So with each individual member, we'll have individual meetings.” She recalls seeing member Rosé "picking up each individual dancer, literally picking them up, and putting them in place and blocking them.”

Source: GQ

Going to a K-pop concert is an attack on the senses in the best way possible. Sound is obviously well covered. For sight, there's meticulously-crafted choreography and costumes. Even touch is ticked off in the form of ‘lightsticks’, band-specific batons that you wave to form a light show. For BLACKPINK's current world tour, scent also almost made it to the table, though fell at the final hurdle.

“We were going to do little perfume vials, and we were so close but [were] having issues with formulation,” says Amy Bowerman, creative director for the record-breaking girl group's Born Pink world tour. 

Every masterpiece has to start from a single idea, and for Bowerman, her team, and the members of BLACKPINK, that kernel was the album's first single. “All of the elements within the show [were] based around Pink Venom,” says Bowerman, whose role covers everything from stage design and show timelines, to visual storytelling and technical operations. Elements from the video, like lush pink and green scene-scapes and brutalist architecture, are mirrored in their tour production. 

The show that the team created to mirror the Pink Venom ethos comes in the shape of moving stages, blinding pyrotechnics, confetti cannons, vibrant video design and enormous “blow-through” video screens that are a “nightmare for anybody who is a content maker”, but create a warehouse vibe that juxtaposes the group's femininity with a harder edge. Capturing the multiplicity of BLACKPINK was a challenge, Bowerman says, as “their songs are very aggressive, but then they have some songs that feel very smooth, kind of sexy, kind of feminine.”

Fans and artists work symbiotically in K-pop concerts, with long moments of interaction before, during and after the show. “I didn't realise how much the encore meant to them and the Blinks, so they have those moments where they get super close and personal with the fans,” Bowerman says. “They were like, 'Oh, we don't want to do anything here, we just want to sit on the edge of the stage and have a moment.’”

BLACKPINK is Bowerman's first K-pop client, having previously worked with the likes of Anne Marie and Dua Lipa, and she was surprised by the amount of on-the-ground collaboration there was from the beginning stages of planning. “This was definitely one of those shows where you don't go in and go, 'Okay, here's your creative brief' and then go away and do it”, she says. “It's a full family affair of everybody getting involved.” 

Bowerman says the band themselves are meticulous about how the concert will play out. “They're very hands-on with their music and if they don't hear something that they like in the live show, they will just go back into the studio and rewrite that piece of music”, she says. “They really wanted control over their solo stages as well. So with each individual member, we'll have individual meetings.” She recalls seeing member Rosé "picking up each individual dancer, literally picking them up, and putting them in place and blocking them.”

As Born Pink travels across the globe for the rest of the year, Bowerman hopes people who assume K-pop artists have little autonomy over their work rethink their misconceptions. “I think everybody thinks it's just the machine, but actually, it's their life,” she says. “They live there with their team and they love everybody around them. They really want to share that."

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‘Walking into YG Entertainment I was like, wow, I’ve never worked with a female lighting designer ever. But they were like, ‘all lighting designers here are women’, which is amazing. I also arrived with the sense that we wouldn’t speak to the artists that much, that they wouldn’t be that involved or have an opinion, but they were very involved across everything they do, especially the music.”

Source: i-D

“I love K-pop,” enthuses Amy Bowerman, the 33-year-old London-based creative director whose work is currently being seen by thousands as superstars BLACKPINK take their Born Pink show global. “I’m fascinated by it… how they build campaigns around their singles, the way artists debut. It’s such an incredible world and fans are at the heart of it.” Amy runs two companies — the music and live production-focused WFB Live alongside her husband, William, and the visual production company Ceremony London — with clients including Post Malone, Rina Sawayama, Holly Humberstone and Dua Lipa. “I started Ceremony in 2020 with tour director Pete Abbott and we just went, ‘We’ll make this work’. It snowballed really fast.”

Ceremony London was approached by BLACKPINK’s label — YG Entertainment — in spring 2022, for their Born Pink tour, and was up against a fast-ticking clock. “We started in May, so really not that long ago. The music was there and with that the choreography, but that was it. So it was, like, ‘This is what we have… let’s make a show around it’,” Amy recalls. “That’s the climate at the moment, there’s not a huge amount of lead time on tours; a hangover from COVID is that people are hesitant on locking down hefty dates. They announced the tour in August and the shows began in October, so everything was really whizzing past!”

Born Pink is extravagant, with all the hallmarks of an arena pop show — sprays of pyrotechnics, moving stage sections and huge screens — but it’s also human; they travel with a full backing band and cast of dancers. In true K-pop fashion, BLACKPINK pepper proceedings with chats to their adoring fandom and moments of affectionate camaraderie between the members themselves.   “I’ve learned about just how valued the fans are in K-pop,” Amy continues. “K-pop fans are given just as much consideration in the live environment as the group are, which is incredible. That was an amazing thing to learn more about.”

As Born Pink arrives in Europe, i-D talks to Amy about the show’s creation, its challenges, and the surprises encountered while working with the world’s biggest girl group.  

So what was the starting point? Was there an initial idea that YG or BLACKPINK wanted you to evolve?

“Pink Venom'' and “Shut Down” were about to come out and BLACKPINK were like: ‘this is our new direction, these are the songs we want to make a huge moment about in the show’. They’re very proud of those songs. So we took “Pink Venom” and put it at the heart of everything.

Has there been much evolution from your original idea to the final show?

Yes and no. We went through so many iterations but it happened organically. When the girls go into music rehearsals, you hear it in the room when songs don’t work together, so we have to move things around. And as that happens, we change the visuals, how everyone moves around the stage, the stage itself. The idea we had on the first day, that’s still there — “Pink Venom” is at the centre of the show. 

Maybe fans won’t realise but you don’t actually see the colour pink in the show until “Pink Venom”, then for the rest of the show there’s lots of pink. The start is all greens and blues — this woodland, nymph-esque world where it’s very flirty and feminine. Then it moves into a heavy monochrome that’s very harsh and powerful. Then the girls’ solo sections are a weird trippy mix. Then it’s a real celebration of BLACKPINK as a whole. So the wider narrative has remained — the duality, the individuality, the group — but everything around it has evolved. 

Was considering the fans in the live space a challenge for you? 

It was definitely a challenge. When Western acts leave the stage, we get them off as fast as possible and cover up the exit — it’s smoke and mirrors. In K-pop, live shows are treated as an opportunity for fans to spend time with the artist. It took a little while for me to adjust to that but it’s lovely. If you look at videos of the tour so far, it’s mostly BLACKPINK engaging with their fans.

A lot of artists won’t break character for their entire concert, so that fans stay fully immersed. But K-pop acts snap in and out of it. How does this affect the world you’re trying to build?

Designating specific moments within the show was so important — you’re having this very intimate moment and then boom: you’re straight back into the fierce energy. There’s a Western view, I think, that the K-pop world is quite cold because their performances are highly polished. But breaking those for a human moment turns it from this huge, untouchable thing into something the fans can really engage with. 

What was the thinking behind YG Entertainment’s decision to bring in a Western production company to such a big K-pop show?

They have everything they could possibly need in-house. Their team is incredible; a fully female production team, which was amazing to be a part of. But a lot of YG’s team are mixed — their band is American, their music director is American, and we’re based in London. These girls have a lot of different interests, they pull from a lot of different narratives, they’re in the fashion world, they have a wide variety of music references — it made sense that all these people were brought together. It felt like a huge collaboration; a buzzy hive of throwing ideas around, seeing what was going to work, sitting down with the girls and seeing how they wanted to push themselves in different directions. 

It’s sometimes assumed that women aren’t running things in K-pop, so I think people might be surprised to hear that there are fully female creative teams with that kind power.

Walking into YG Entertainment I was like, wow, I’ve never worked with a female lighting designer ever. But they were like, ‘all lighting designers here are women’, which is amazing. I also arrived with the sense that we wouldn’t speak to the artists that much, that they wouldn’t be that involved or have an opinion, but they were very involved across everything they do, especially the music. If BLACKPINK aren’t happy, they’ll just walk into the studio and be like, ‘we need to change this’. I don’t think it’s a secret but it’s definitely less accepted that they might have autonomy.

What were BLACKPINK eager to see happen in this show?

Oh, so much! They are heavily invested in their music, they spend all of their time in the dance studio or in their studio with their producer Teddy. They said to me, ‘we have this new record and it’s very much like us, we want to show the world us and what we can do and who BLACKPINK is’. The feeling was that they really hadn’t been able to showcase themselves as much as they wanted to during this whole lockdown period, they had the amazing Coachella show, but this tour felt really big. So it was about stamping in what everyone already loves about BLACKPINK, then showing off the new record and how amazing these shows can be. It's a huge celebration of BLACKPINK, of K-pop, and the effect they’ve had across the world. I think that sums up what we were trying to achieve with it. 

What’s a major memory for you from making this show?

There was one day in production rehearsals where we got to see it all come together. We finally saw the staging, choreography, content and music, lights and lasers. Up until that moment, it was all very theoretical, with a lot of conversations, and a lot of planning. As soon as the members stepped out onto that stage, we all knew the hours of drawings, rehearsals and meetings were worth it — they would get to go out and give this to their audience. There was a real buzz that day.

The visuals during the introduction are huge florals combined with hard-edged glitch effects: would this also be a way of defining who BLACKPINK currently are as young women?

Something we were working into the show is that their name is BLACKPINK: they’re both dark and feminine, so we have these hyper-feminine floral scenes but there’s a little bit of the grotesque in it; like a lily that’s leaking this weird metallic liquid, and of course the music is really dark. There’s a strong energy about them and I think that’s what sets BLACKPINK apart, and they wanted that to come through — to show strength and beauty. Towards the end of the show we were working with two dichotomies — water and earth, fire and ice — and showing those continually. And that sums up BLACKPINK for me; it’s about cohabiting those two spaces in harmony.

Were BLACKPINK a little nervous starting this tour, since there was a lot riding on it?

There was a lot of excited energy. It meant a lot to them. It was like, ‘it’s finally happening, we really want to go out there and make this the best show possible’. It came to a point where they felt they really needed to give the fans something that they’d been waiting for, because they weren’t able to do this during lockdown. That was the general vibe — no negative or nervous vibes, no fear.

As a creative director, you had a strong vision for Born Pink but also a huge team to work with and four strong-minded artists. How easy is it for you to compromise and be flexible?

These shows take an absolute village to execute, but you’re there as the only person whose role is on the creative side, so you’re like: Where do I push? Where do I hold back? Where do I really try to put my stamp on it? There were endless sleepless nights because it’s so hard to get right. I’ve not worked in K-pop before; it’s a different world where some things are a given and you can’t change them. Something might not really work with my vision but you have to ask: What’s most important here? You can go forward and change things, but what for? Is it really achieving the goal of delivering a great show that the fans love and the artists are happy and proud of? If you put something on that the artist isn’t happy with, you’re going to see it in their performance immediately. 

Finally, which moment in Born Pink gives you goosebumps?

That’s hard because the show has so many special moments. Obviously “DDU-DU DDU-DU” is iconic. “Kill This Love” though… we have them rising up behind the screens with all the lights and the horns of the intro — having done the creative for it, that will always be a special moment for me. 

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“Collaboration with all of the teams is so crucial to this process and luckily we were working amongst the best – the YG production team, AEG, YGX, Tait,  Possible, Omar Dominick.”

Source: 10magazine

Working closely with the quartet – made up of Jisoo, Jennie, Rosé, and Lisa – Bowerman based the tour’s concept around the band’s hit single “Pink Venom”. Envisioning an idealistic world which is quickly eclipsed by new, strange lands, Bowerman and YG entertainment have crafted one of the most impressive arena shows in recent memory.

What was your initial reaction when you learnt you were creatively directing BLACKPINK’s Born Pink tour?

“I was incredibly excited and felt very fortunate to be approached by YG. Working in K-Pop was definitely a bucket list moment for me. It is pretty daunting working in such a different part of the industry in a different part of the world but the whole process of connecting and meeting the wider team was such a fun and welcoming process.”

What sort of undertaking goes into creatively directing an arena tour?

“Creatively directing any tour has to take all elements of what you see, hear, feel and even smell into context -– music, staging, lighting, choreo, styling, special effects etc. We always start with the core message and values of the show, then move into forming a narrative around this. From there considering how each element supports or leads this narrative. There are a lot of different components  to consider at once and we went through hundreds of sketches, renders, decks and storyboards before stepping foot in a production space.

“Collaboration with all of the teams is so crucial to this process and luckily we were working amongst the best – the YG production team, AEG, YGX, Tait,  Possible, Omar Dominick.”

How did the collaborative process work between yourself and the band?

“It was a very inspiring process. The band are very connected to their work and working with artists that are so switched on to how the music needs to feel to their audience or how they should move across the stage or how they see the use of colour in the show. It not only makes the creative process a lot easier but also means that the presentation of them to the audience is more true to the artist’s intent.”

How did you go about translating the girls different personalities into the show?

“Each member of BLACKPINK has their own solo projects that they work on. This gave us a very natural way to offer the audiences an intimate moment with the members individually. The solo section of the show positions each member on stage with their own music and their own presentation which allows the audience to focus in on them and their solo voice. I think that having this specific time within the wider show which is very much about the strong group identity is such a special moment that offers up something so unique and exclusive.”

What was the most challenging element of creatively directing the tour?

“To be very honest, juggling planning meetings with all of the teams across the globe was the most brutal part of the process. With different teams in Korea, NY, Atlanta and LA, my alarm would go off at all hours of the day and my sleep schedule was completely crazy.”

What has been the most rewarding element?

“There are always two rewarding moments of any show. The first is that point where the drawings and storyboards start to come to life. There is always that one day you go into production and the staging, choreo, content and music come together and you really see the show and know that the artist gets to give this to their audience. There is always such a buzz in the room that day.

“The next moment is always when you see the audience in the room for the first time and you see the purpose of all of the planning, the artists’ long nights in choreo, all of the rehearsals and redos. It all becomes worth it when you see the excitement and with the BLACKPINK show there is the added bonus of the notoriously dedicated K-Pop fans.”

What, in your opinion, is the highlight moment from the show?

“This one is just too hard to answer. There are so many – “Pretty Savage” has this incredible group choreo thanks to the YGX team, the “Kill This Love” entrance is so powerful and the solo section feels like an exclusive moment with each of the members… I could go on. Even the moments between the songs where the members directly address the audience just feels so human and is really special.”

What do you hope people take away from the tour?

“The show is a high energy party and a celebration of everything BLACKPINK. I would love for everyone in the room to feel the joy and connection that the artists bring to their performance. If everyone in the audience, whether a preexisting fan or not, can feel the electricity in the room that the group creates then our job is done.”

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“..coming off the BLACKPINK tour last year where they're in stadiums, you have a ridiculous amount of space to try and compete with. And I would definitely say that the words “compete with” because it becomes another challenge.”

Souce: NYLON

You've worked on these mega tours. BLACKPINK is one of the biggest acts right now, Dua Lipa took over during lockdown. Outside of the obvious budget, what are some of the biggest differences between tour size from a creative standpoint?

Honestly, the next biggest difference is space and size, because I think the aspirations remain the same. It's like, "What can we do? What can we do to maximize what we've got here?" Even when you work on these big mega tours, I think that people think that artists have endless amounts of money, but you are still creating within a budget. And budget always gets you, no matter how big it is. But I think you're adapting and trying to make the most of what you have. I think, especially with these smaller-venue tours, it's like, "How do we use them for the absolute Nth degree?"

I think what's really interesting is that all of the elements they're the same. We had staging, we had choreography, we had lighting, we had a quite sizable band as well, like a four piece band, which is the same with BLACKPINK — they have a four piece band, so that stays the same. Most of the elements and the amount of work that you need to do to pull that together and make it a show that feels cohesive is roughly the same. It's about how much of it that you have to play with, how can you maximize it to make it feel as big as possible or even as small as possible. I think the issues with some of the larger tours is that you have this vast amount of space. It's great having that a lot of the space, but sometimes you want to make it feel really intimate. It's quite funny, because especially coming off the BLACKPINK tour last year where they're in stadiums, you have a ridiculous amount of space to try and compete with. And I would definitely say that the words “compete with” because it becomes another challenge. Then, coming into a smaller venue, they did their first show Outernet, in London, and it's a 2,000 cap room, but I still looked at it like, "Oh, there's a lot of work here to be done, because we have to make absolute most of this space."